Concerning water Baptism!

Desert Rose: In reference with the discussion of water baptism, I think it boiled down to how do we decide whether what we have heard is right or wrong? I do not know what is the golden standard you use to measure against? More often, people will tell us it is the Bible because Scripture is God’s breathe, and we truthfully accept it. I would like to ask you guys some questions:

(1)  Do you think Apostle Paul was saying Scripture as the current Old Testament, or did he try to boast that what he had said was God’s breathe too and none of what he had said was his personal opinions?

(2) Fundamentally, do you think we are saved by the Bible, or we are saved because we believe Lord Jesus?

(3) Were the Apostles not being told to teach all other-believers to observe all things that Lord Jesus had commanded them?

(4) Then the following becomes a simple question, from which of Lord Jesus’ command that the Apostles taught about the water baptism?

Daniel Shu-Lin Wu Hi D Rose, you should know my answers to your questions already how our Lord Jesus said one should be baptised is also what was revealed to tjc's pioneer, Barnabas Chang

A response to Brother Daniel!

References: Matt 28:18-20; 2 COR 11:3; Heb 6:1-3; John 16:12-15

(1) The simplicity of Christ

By the grace of God, Lord Jesus might have taught us all that we must know in order to receive the salvation in a simple and straight forward manner. 

This could be the reason why Lord Jesus asked His disciples “baptizing them, and teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:20). Absolutely, Lord Jesus didn’t tell his disciples to wait for his new commands before they started to preach. The apostles, as messengers and in the capacity of teachers, are to teach all things that Lord Jesus had commanded as it had been told. All things that I have commanded you certainly has the connotation that those commands had already been delivered to the disciples. Whoever knows such commands and observes will be saved. 

This could be the reason why Apostle Paul pronounced the simplicity that is in Christ (2 COR 11:3). Salvation through Christ is very simple, just doing in accordance to what Jesus had commanded. 

This could be the reason the author of the book of Hebrew declared that we should not laying again of the doctrine of baptisms (I believed inclusive of water baptism) (Heb 6:1-3). Again it carries the meaning of following what Lord Jesus had commanded.

Then you may ask why should we do differently than what Lord Jesus had shown us by example and commanded us to observe accordingly? 

I would boldly guess the purpose is to differentiate a church from thousands of other denominations. It is for marketing a church’s name rather than to uphold Christ’s name “Jesus”. Most churches in this world are advertizing their churches’ name to attract more followers. In doing so, all churches may have quietly and surely pushing aside the name of Christ “Jesus” for their name sake. Unknowingly in doing so, all churches are deviating from the original commands of Christ. All Christians accept such practice because no one dares to ask simple and sensible questions.

(2) Lord Jesus had shown his disciples what water baptism was about?

Lord Jesus had personally shown to his disciples what water baptism was by being baptized by John the Baptist. It was as simple as what had been illustrated by example. Lord Jesus had mentioned nothing concerning posture during baptism. Referring to (Matt 28:18-20), certainly Lord Jesus did not command His disciples to do anything extra-ordinary than baptized them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. 

In short, water baptism does not belong to the category of truths that haven’t been told or not able to bear. (John 16:12) Lord Jesus had sent his twelve disciples to spread the Gospel at least twice as recorded in the books of four Gospel. The disciples had preached and baptized the Israelite. No incidences had been recorded concerning posture.

In “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you”, Apostle Paul might have trying to explain in his own words the effect of receiving water baptism in the capacity as a teacher (Romans 6:3). Paul was not trying to change the way a baptism should be done differently than what had been commanded by example. Apostle Peter declared “baptized in the name of Lord Jesus for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). We as sinners should have been dead if not because of Lord Jesus whom had died for our sins. Therefore our sins are being remitted during water baptism is because of Christ’s death. It is like baptizing into His death so that we may be alive. Then Paul’s explanation started to make some sense to the believers in the apostolic time. The message has nothing to do with posture. Paul was not trying to laying another doctrine of Baptism. It is so easy to misunderstand Apostle Paul’s writings because of his writing style.

We should be thinking about this. Will the Holy Spirit who is also the Spirit of Christ trying to reveal to his believers some things that Lord Jesus had already commanded in person? Are all things that had been commanded are the truths! Can the truths be abolished by the Spirit of Christ!

Then, why then Barnabas Chang received such revelation? I really cannot answer for you. 

For me, at least I will ask the following questions:

(a) Was the revelation concerning something that Christ had taught?

If it is related to an old message, what is the reason for us to leave behind the simplicity that is in Christ?

(b) Was the revelation concerning something that Christ had not taught?

If the revelation is something new which Lord Jesus hasn’t told in person, I will seriously consider it because of John 16:12-15! Keeping in mind whether now we may be able to bear because God may have prepared us good enough to receive something new; in the right state of mind and at the right time, physically and spiritually!

(3) Bible verses:

John 16:12-15 12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.  13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.  14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.  15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.”  NKJV

2 COR 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.基督（或者指基督的救恩）是简易的直接的单纯的，希望你们的思想不要从基督的简易中被破坏被污染了。

Matt 28:18-20 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,  20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.  NKJV

Heb 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.  NKJV